Warning - lost VOIPSTUNT freedays

[mike557]

Just logged in to voipstunt and my freedays which were about 220, have dropped to 49 !!!
Have sent a message to voipstunt and aware that their customer service is certainly not known to be good.
Suggest anyone using finarea/betamax checks their account.

After email exchange with voipstunt they say that 5 euros only entitles you to 60 freedays and NOT 120.
Further email states "Due to a technical problem some of our customers had too many freedays indicated on their account. Our apologies for the inconvenience."

So anyone using an agent be aware you will lose half your freedays !!!

[PaphosAL]

Yes, Mike- just checked my voipstunt account, which had Freedays through to November and credit of over €18, to find I now have NO freedays left, and my credit has now whittled down to €16...

Yet on his www.punshon.com site, Roland is still claiming this:

PROMOTIONS may be changed by the provider at any time. 
However once you have FREEDAYS (Maximum 360 days), 
you will keep them guaranteed as your VoIP account credit itself.
You will keep always your present FREEDAYS and the new FREEDAYS will be added.

Clearly, the goalposts have been moved during the match! I think we need to tackle Roland and ask him WTF is going on, m8!!

Cheers- AL

ps- Have sent a message to Roland, and also just raised a ticket at voipstunt. Will keep you posted on any outcome

[mike557]

Roland has said :-

As you, I am puzzled and appalled about the unforeseen changes of the operator Betamax since August.
We reseller were not informed about the FREEDAYS changes.
Now it is only possible to get max 60 days for 5 Euros for new orders.

You tell me this applies even retro-active!
This is not fair and I wrote to the provider in that sense.
However he even did not answer.

Voipstunt have not replied since I said they have taken the money and should honour the contract.

Roland suggests that it is still excellent value, although I have my doubts, with some of the discounts that BT !!! offer.

I think we have all been screwed, trying to do anything legally is going to be very difficult.

Obviously the real push should come from the resellers but somehow I doubt anything will happen

[PaphosAL]

Are Betamax Germany or Switzerland based, Mike? If Germany- then EU Contract Law would surely apply? They can't unilaterally break a contract 11/12 of the way through (in my case), just like that, no notification, leaving you carrying on unaware you're using credit now, rather than free calls, ffs!

And £33 to top up with €30 credit??

That's bloody outrageous!!

[mike557]

According to their terms

1.7 VoipStunt: A trademark of Betamax GmbH & Co.Kg, a company established under the laws of germany.

And looking at the Betamax website

Betamax was founded in 2005 in Germany by a group of marketing experts.

I have just sent this to Roland

Dear Roland

As I have not received what I paid for then I must ask you to pursue this problem with Betamax.
I paid for 360 free days and as Betamax has retro actively halved the duration to 180 days, you must resolve this as my contract is with you.
You have received my money and you did advertise that once the days were credited, they would not be removed. In law my contract is with you and therefore you are responsible.
If you are unable to resolve this problem, I will advise PayPal of the non delivery of service and request that my money is paid back.
I appreciate that this problem has been created by Betamax however you provided the service and therefore you are bound by contract law.

[PaphosAL]

The other thing I forgot to mention, apart from the ridiculous exchange rate requiring £33 for a €30 purchase, is that the £33 is what Roland now requires in order to give 360 Free Days.

I last topped-up with him on October 9th 2008, got 360 Free Days, and it cost me under half of that- £14-64!!

I've heard nowt back from Roland nor voipstunt yet... Cheers- AL

[mike557]

Mine cost about £17.50 for a year through Roland which I still considered good value.

Just received this from Roland - effectively saying it has nothing to do with him

I wonder how many others have been conned by Betamax ?

How can a company just turn round and say that "due to a technical problem..." we will retro-actively alter your account

Dear Mike,

Thank you very much for your E-mail !

First of all I want you to know that I am with you, even against the provider.

When you ordered, you agreed to my general conditions where it is clearly stated that I do not belong to the provider and provide only a financial service. Otherwise you could not buy.
All matters regarding the service obligation is up to the provider Betamax, not to me as broker.
If the service is not what you expected the eventual dispute is between you and Betamax.
GENERAL TERMS OF SALE FOR THE RECHARGE OF TELEPHONE ACCOUNTS VOIP www.punshon.com/termsofuse-en/

From my side I fulfilled the job: charging your account with credit and getting you the max of the freedays promotion offered by the provider.

As broker, I cannot be held responsible if the provider changes promotion, rates or even modifies your account later on.

However I tried to put forward yours and other clients concern regarding the fact that Betamax changes afterwards service conditions.
They did not even answer.
Betamax is actually a company which treats even us resellers badly and never assists when we would need them.

You might know the standard sales rule for any shop: The price and condition on the price tag must be fulfilled, even if there is eventually an error from the shop.
If Betamax changes after confirmation of credit and FREEDAYS it is for sure unlawful even in Germany (Betamax is a German company).

The customer service from Betamax is actually non existing. This is of course to keep rates very low, as a CS cost enormous money.
I pointed this out in my offer and made it clear that I am responsible for the credit which I provide. However not for the actual service delivered by the provider or any changes on the account of the client.
As the credit was delivered to your account my obligation towards you and PayPal was fulfilled. The change of promotion is beyond my power and I cannot be held responsible for that.
It would be same if you buy a car and the seller gets you a bank credit.
After you receive the credit and the car does not work the bank cannot be held responsible for the performance of the car.

What can be done?

Best would be legal action.
Legal actions are based on proofs and facts.
Therefore you MUST keep the E-mail from Betamax as proof that they downgraded the FREEDAYS.
Actually this is the best proof you have.
If you want to start a legal action, of course I assist you with declarations, confirmations and even an affidavit.

Chances to win?
Probably yes, however as the amount is very small some courts might not accept the claim.

A client told me that he heard of a court case from the Netherlands where Betamax lost the case.

Eventually if you have a solicitor who would not charge you a fee in advance you could start any action.

Another way could be to ask help via a consumer association in Cologne/Germany who could assist. You find them via Internet.
Companies in Germany are very afraid of consumer associations and probably Betamax could agree to settle at once.

In the past some clients already did put forward claims to Betamax for other reasons with the result that Betamax blocked their accounts, freezed the credit and did ... nothing.

Hopefully I supplied you with enough information to help you to decide which could be the appropriate action to take.
Please keep in mind that I do not intend to hide or escape any responsibility but assist you where I can.

Consider also the fact that phone calls with Betamax are the cheapest on the market and actually most of my clients even do not care about FREEDAYS and pay half a cent a minute to place a phone-call.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards

Roland
VoIP Power Broker
--
CHAT ON-LINE or LEAVE YOUR MESSAGE:
www.punshon.com/gold

[PaphosAL]

Oh dear...

Another point of confusion, Mike- is that when I dig around the voipskunk FAQs about Freedays, they seem to suggest that buying credit gives you 120 Freedays. That's for a €10 purchase, which will cost around £11 once they've added their poxy 20% VAT and 50p PayPal fee.

So when you go to their 'Buy Credit' page- you have €10, €25, and €50 options. Nowhere does it state how many Freedays come with these three bands! Can we assume 120 - 288 - 600 ?? Or are they all 120?

Point is, doing it three times over in succession direct with Voipstunt @ £11 a go would give 360 Freedays (guaranteed). Roland wants £33 for 360 Freedays, with what we now clealy see as no guarantee whatsoever. But what has happened to his 'Double your Freedays' angle?

Cheers- AL

[PaphosAL]

You've gone quiet, Mike- I hope all is well with you, m8!

email from Roland earlier today- pretty much a copy of the first reply you had from him. Have just replied as follows:

 Dear Roland,
 
Thank you for your reply. I am now using up my remaining €16 voipstunt
credit on calls, before I make a repurchase decision.
 
On your Site, you are currently quoting £33 for 360 Free Days with 
voipstunt, which we have now established are not guaranteed, despite 
the claims on your punshon website to the contrary!
 
In contrast, I can top up directly with voipstunt for £11, and receive 
120 Free Days. So three consecutive purchases (spread out time-wise)
would cost a total of £33 and yield 360 guaranteed Free Days.
 
Please explain the present benefits of topping up with you, a VOIP
'Power Broker', as compared to going direct, and cutting out the
middleman. I must be missing something obvious?
 
We have recommended your service to many other UK voip users 
via a couple of popular UK message boards over the past year, so 
it is our reputation at stake also!!
 
Best Regards- Alan

His response might make interesting reading... Cheers- AL

[mike557]

I am still wondering what the best thing to do is AL.
I have thought about asking Roland for his customers (who have been screwed by Betamax) list, alternatively asking him to send an email to all his customers explaining that we are here and want to get together iyswim.
As many others have said, because the amounts are small, very few people can be bothered to sort things out (legal or illegal).
I knew Betamax had a bad reputation concerning changing free destinations to chargeable etc, but everything was fine until this dirty trick.
I do not blame Roland, as he appears to be genuinely concerned and willing to help.
Have posted a link to this thread on Datacave hoping that others effected will get in touch.
I suspect that many betamax users (who bought through an agent) are unaware of this - so best to wait a while and see what happens.